Our belief in the Incarnation of Jesus is very relevant to how we understand him and how we incorporate him into our lives. When the author of the series I am posting entitles it The Incarnation of Jesus and the Body of Christ, he is referring to the body that Christ occupied on this earth, as well as the body of Christ that is today comprised of those who are followers of him. How does our belief on the Incarnation affect how we interact corporately as the Body of Christ? Do not overlook the fact that the two are tied together very intimately.
First, let us think a bit about what we have been taught about the Incarnation. We have, most of us, received teaching that Jesus was incubated in Mary, but was not of her. All this in spite of the many scriptures that point us to the truth that he was a man who was of the seed of Abraham, our brother, our kinsman redeemer. To be right plain about it, Mary was made pregnant by God. This seems fantastical to some people, but there is a common belief that in the Old Testament times, as the Bible says in Genesis 6:1,2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. I believe that it is commonly understood that the sons of God were the fallen angels, and they began to mate with humans. If it was possible for the fallen angels to mate with human women and produce offspring, how much more plausible that God would do such a thing? However, it seems that it has been in someone’s best interest to try to teach that this was not possible, or that God would not stoop to such a thing. Mary was the genetic mother of Jesus. I believe the scriptures are abundantly clear on that point.
I believe that one of the reasons that Menno Simons was so strong in his teaching of the Incarnation was because he came out of the Catholic Church where he saw an inappropriate veneration of Mary and an incorrect teaching of the Incarnation, so that he veered completely (and incorrectly) in the opposite direction. This lead him to teach at great length on the matter, and in so doing he developed what he believed was a highly intellectual approach to the matter. He delved rather deeply into his ideas of procreation and based his thesis upon this incorrect view, and forgot to remember the scriptures. This should be a lesson to us about the harm in sectarianism and the divisions in religions. These things are all set in place to deceive us, and if we begin to recognize these divisions and base our beliefs on simply being different from others whom we believe to be wrong, we can go astray quite quickly. Furthermore, in the days of the Inquisition, people were put to death for the reason that they would not agree with the Catholic Church and their ideas of the Incarnation. In fact the Cathars were a sect who were actually what is known as the Gnostics, and they took the complete opposite view, that all matter is evil and therefore Christ could not have been human because to have taken on human flesh would have required that he be evil. This too was an incorrect belief. However, the Holdemans proudly proclaim this sect in their lineage, and I believe the connection goes back to this time. Menno Simons identified with the Gnostics/Cathars in disputing the Roman Catholic view of the Incarnation of Christ. Here is a link to some information that might be interesting. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/heretics.html So let us be clear about this one thing; it is always a bad idea to simply have a knee-jerk reaction to things we think are wrong, and therefore take an opposite and perhaps incorrect view.
I would like to say this about the whole matter; The Holdemans dispute that they are Gnostic or Docetist in their view of Christ, because they do believe he was more than just a phantom. Yet they do not seem to understand the heresy that is actually threaded throughout their entire teaching, and the origins of it. I will leave that alone for now, as it might be a study for another time, if one has time and energy for it, but rather, I want to discuss more about the present day teachings.
Today it is required of a man who is being ordained into the ministry to affirm that he does in fact concur with the teaching of the church on the matter of the Incarnation. He is in a back room with a group of ministers, he has already been elected by what is claimed to be the popular vote, he is feeling holy and called of God, and whether or not he has given himself to a study of the matter, he must agree with the church’s stand on it before they can proceed with the ordination ceremony, or at least, so I have been told. If anyone has information contrary to this, you are welcome to come forward with it. So here the young man will agree to believe and teach what the church believes and teaches, often without really understanding for himself what it is. After all, who wants to turn back at this point?
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if I were to find out that many of them have privately had their doubts, but continued to teach something they didn’t even properly understand themselves. The interesting thing here is that this teaching seems to be important, but if you were to poll the members themselves, you would find a very large number of them who would say “I don’t know for sure what the church believes on that, and why does it really matter anyway?” I find this very disturbing. The Bible teaches us that it is very important. Consider these verses: 1 John 4:2, 3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This can prove to be rather interesting. If, in trying to have a conversation with someone about it, you point out this verse, they can sidestep by saying, “welllll I believe he came in the flesh…..yes, he had flesh, he wasn’t an apparition.” But yet, what is John really saying here? He is making it very very important that we believe the correct thing about the flesh of Christ. We must believe that he was born of Mary, he was of the seed of Abraham, and he is our brother. We are now joint heirs with him of the riches of glory. When we distance ourselves from him and view him as something different from us, we begin to view the Body of Christ on earth in the same way. We do not really feel related, we do not really feel a part. We belive it is something mystical and other than what it really is. We do not expect it to feel us in our sufferings, to be patient and kind with us, but rather we sometimes shrink back in fear, we do not really believe that we are a part of it. We may say we do, but the experience that we live out says otherwise. When we allow ministers to lord it over us, when we think they are more important than we are, that there is something mystical and powerful about them and that they are above mistakes, then we are seeing this thing being worked out in us.
Is it possible that a false belief in the Incarnation is essential to the reigns of power in a One True Visible Church type setting? Is the point upon which it pivots? I find that men such as Chris and Andrew who have come here to tell their stories are open to understanding the bible in a way that is different from what they have been taught. I see in them a humility and a type of courage that is not seen in the members of the church. In the church I see “men” cowering in fear, allowing themselves to be bullied, and eventually pulling a blanket up over their heads and deciding that just getting along will be good enough. How much of this is tied to an incorrect view of the Incarnation? I believe a good deal of it is.
And furthermore! Not only should real men stand up and say that they will believe what the Bible teaches, no matter the cost, but they should also read the stories of Andrew and Chris and they should stand up and say “NO MORE! We’ve been duped! We’ve been lied to! We’ve been had! These men tell stories of having been manipulated, bullied and sexually offended by the leaders of the church. This is so wrong that I should think a great cry would go up. How can any man sit and say nothing when it is brought to their attention in this manner? Men! Brothers! Think of the times you have been bullied by the ministers, and you have shoved your questions back down and gone along for the sake of retaining your membership and your position. If you have read this series on the Incarnation, and you are beginning to be convinced within yourself that there is more here that needs to be investigated, and you remain quiet out of fear, then you are in a very dangerous position indeed. Will you suffer for the cause of Christ? Will you give up all? Your home, your money, your career, your prestige, your position? Your friends? If not, then you are not worthy to be called a follower of Christ!
VOX POPULI 
Let us consider another angle; as I mentioned in the above post, the fallen angels had intermingled with the human race and polluted the bloodlines. If Jesus were to be born of the seed of Abraham, God had to do away with the polluted genetics. This was the reason for the flood. All of mankind was corrupted by this demonic interbreeding. Satan had carried out his plan to corrupt the human race, because he knew that the Son of God was going to come forth as a human being, and he was desperately trying to prevent it by making the human race genetically corrupted so that he would have control of whomever it was that was born to be the Messiah. Because of this, God destroyed the world with a great flood, saving Noah and his family. These were the only humans left who were not corrupted. This gave the opportunity to clean up the bloodlines, and there came a time when God called Abraham out to a secluded place where he could develop a people who would not intermarry with those outside their culture. He was preparing the lineage of Christ. Now, tell me, if Jesus did not take on the actual genetic heritage of the Jewish people, the seed of Abraham, King David, etc, why was this necessary. Why did God need to prepare a clean race of people in order to bring his son forth from a bloodline that was uncorrupted by demonic seed? Can anyone answer this for me?
I want to repeat this again….challenging the church’s teaching of the Incarnation will most likely get you expelled and shunned. Yet, if you do a random poll of the members you will find a significant number of them who do not know what the church teaches, and who will say to you, why does it really matter anyway? I find this odd. I believe the ministers would somewhat like to leave the people in the dark. Oh they teach on it from time to time, but if they know that someone has a question about it they will rather sidestep it or avoid it rather than honestly answer questions that someone might have. I wonder why this is so. What do you think? How important do you think it is?
I believe it is important to recognize the incarnation of Christ “that He is fully God” as well as “fully man” in order to accept His “blood” as the atonement for my sin and His Godhead as the means to set me free from the bonds of sin and death. If Jesus was not man he could not have died…if Jesus was not God He would not have the power to both “lay down His life” as well as “take it up”.
John 10:17-18 KJV Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. (18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
No one else has the power to set us free. Because they do not have the power to put us down in a sense (?) The last statement may need qualifying but I don’t feel qualified to do so. Does someone have a thought on it ?
After God established Abraham’s offspring as is chosen people, the lineage from which the Messiah would come, he began to circumcise the men. This may have had several implications, but one of them was that the women would always know that the men they were having children with were of the chosen ones. There was an actual obvious physical sign that the man was from the right lineage. If a foreigner wanted to come among them, he had to convert and then be circumcised. God went to a fair amount of trouble to ensure that usurpers would not steal in and pollute the bloodline.
When I mentioned that the fallen angels mated with the human women, apparently they were able to manifest as human beings and actually have sexual relations with the women. We do not believe that God actually took Mary to bed, but the bible says that the Spirit of God “overshadowed” her. Luke 1:35 “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
Strong’s 1982
1) to throw a shadow upon, to envelop in a shadow, to overshadow
This was no doubt a very powerful thing, which resulted in Mary conceiving the child of God.
I think this is very interesting information. How can anyone fail to see that Mary conceived and brought forth a son? She did not incubate a child that was placed within her, she conceived.
Strongs 2029 conceived
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to conceive, become pregnant, bear, be with child, be conceived, progenitor
a) (Qal) to conceive, become pregnant
Do we believe the Bible or not?
I was once told that a correct translation for the reason Noah was chosen, was that he was the only man “righteous in his generations” meaning his was the only unpolluted dna still on earth. The nephilim (giants) still showed up after the flood meaning that the polluted dna still existed after flood probably through Noah’s daughters in law. Now does it make sense that when the children of israel were told to conquer these cities, they were to destroy every living thing?
Exactly. Even non Christians who teach about the ” nephilim” being among us today give credit to this story about the flood and the ‘archon’ ‘ surviving through one or more of Noah’s daughters in law.
Would it not make sense to think that Lucifer would make it his goal to degrade the human genome to the point he thought he could conquer or control the human race – make it his. After all his authority and position was being transferred to the new creation. Consider the story of Lot. The male inhabitants of Sodom wanted a sexual relationship with the “sons of God” or elohim. Which indicates that the human species was acquainted with whatever that relationship entailed and desired it intensely. Which also could indicate why Moses later called the same sex act, abhorrent.
Matthew 3:7-10 KJV But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Luke 3:8 KJV Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
John 8:39 KJV They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Galatians 3:6-19 KJV Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. (10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (15) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. (16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (18) For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
We need to know what the bible…God’s Word, says before we can judge what a man says. The Word is always the standard.
The folly of lineage is revealed in the Word; (1 Timothy 1:4 KJV) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
While yes Jesus can trace (I don’t know that He’s really very concerned about it?) or rather men can the lineage back to Abraham if you study the lineage you will find almost every local and non local people a part of it, Rahab the harlot, Ruth the Moabitess …there are others. I don’t know it for a fact because I haven’t given it more than a cursory observation but many of David’s mighty men were not Israelites and many of those in the lineage of Christ come from one side or the other, usually the mothers, of the very people that the Israelites destroyed or that were their enemies. It’s interesting when you consider some of these somewhat not so obvious and in other ways very obvious facts recorded in the bible. (Romans 5:8 KJV) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
It’s an interesting thread ? especially Dad’s last thought