Incarnation of Jesus and the Body of Christ (part 4)

This series is written by a guest blogger.  When I am finished posting it as a series I will post a link to a pdf that you can download and distribute with the author’s permission.

God’s presence was with His people continually throughout their sojourn in the wilderness.  Nehemiah 9:19 “Yet thou in they manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness:  the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go.”

When Moses completed the wilderness tabernacle God moved His presence thee, where he remained in a visible form throughout all their travels.  Exodus 40:33-38 “And he reared up the court round about the tabernacle and the altar, and set up the hanging of the court gate.  So Moses finished the work.  v. 34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.  v. 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.  v. 36 “And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:  v.37 But if the cloud wee not taken up, then they journey not till the day that it was taken up.  v. 38 For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.”

When Solomon finished building the new temple in Jerusalem  God moved His presence there.  1 Kings 8:10-11 “And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,  v. 11 so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.”

Several ancient writers, including Eusebius and Josephus refer to the Shekinah leaving the Jewish temple in the years 66-70 A.D. during the siege and destruction of Jerusalem and moving to the Mount of Olives where it resided for 3 1/2 years before eventually disappearing.

We again see the light marking God’s presence reappearing over the stable in Bethlehem.  Matthew 2:9 “When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, til it came and stood over where the young child was.” God marked the coming of His Son with signs and wonders so that those who were awaiting His coming would recognize the event.

Jesus was filled with the presence of His Father God from birth and in this way was a restoration of the relationship God had with Adam in the garden.  Adam was able to personally communicate with God before he sinned.  Sin ruined this relationship.  God restored it in Jesus who is called the second Adam, and Jesus overcame sin in order to restore the relationship with God for us.  This would not have been possible if Christ had not had the same flesh as Adam.

God Incarnate!  The melding of human flesh with the divine nature!  The great and beautiful work that Christ accomplished for us is that through his victory he opened the way for us to also be restored to this relationship with God!  God has clearly marked the new temple, our fleshly bodies, as the place of His dwelling in the Dispensation of Grace.

it has often been said among the Holdeman people that “Our church has the Candlestick of God.  It is the only church in the world that does.  When John Holdeman left the old church he took the candlestick with him.’  We must in a spirit of candor where the scriptural basis is for this idea?

To be sure, the scriptures speak of a candlestick and candlesticks, which were part of worship in the Old Testament temple.  The seven candlesticks used in the Jewish temple were a symbol of the presence of God.  Revelation speaks of seven golden candlesticks and in chapter 2 verses 1-5 tells the Angel of the church of Ephesus that unless he repents the candlestick will be removed out of its place.  We note that this candlestick is one of seven and the warning is to the angel of the church.  No where do we find that there is one candlestick of God that represents the blessing, favor, or dwelling of God upon one grop or church in the New Testament.  We do, however find that God clearly indicated His place of dwelling with light and fire in the new dispensation.

Acts 2:1-4  “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.  v. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.  v.4 “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

Our bodies are God’s temple as we read in 1 Corinthians 6:19 “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”  The church, the kingdom, the temple, the bride and body of Christ are now to be found within us, as stated in Luke 17:21  “Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”  2 Corinthians 4:6-7  “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”

To be sure, there is a collective aspect to the church as we see in Acts 2:1-4.  The Holy Spirit came upon them as they were together in one accord, in one place, but the light or marker was not given as one light above the whole group as previously done in the old dispensation.  It was given to EACH ONE INDIVIDUALLY.  This is very significant!  The kingdom church and temple of God cannot be found in a nation or group.  It is given individually and  is so marked and described by scripture.  The collective experience of fellowship is accomplished by those  upon whom this mark has fallen, those who have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  And we have this promise in Matthew 18:20  “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in he midst of them.”  Our collective experience does not need an entire organized conference with boundaries drawn to fulfill God’s plan.  We do, however, need each other and are instructed not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together.  In  Matthew 18:18-19 we read “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.  Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.”  This brings the corporate experience, together with the accompanied blessing, down to as few as two individuals agreeing together to ask direction from God.

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27 Responses to Incarnation of Jesus and the Body of Christ (part 4)

  1. sowhatistruth says:

    So, here are some fundamental questions that I believe have not been addressed in the view of the Incarnation being spelled out here:
    If Jesus was born as a descendant of Adam, would He not have been born under the sentence of death that was passed upon all man through Adam’s sin? How then could He have been that Lamb without blemish, worthy of sacrifice? The death sentence spelled out the decay of the human body to dust and Christ was not to see corruption as prophesied and His body did not decay, even after three days in the tomb.
    Here is another question: Why did Jesus Christ never call Mary “mother” but different times called her “woman”? Why did he tell her that his mother and brethern are those that hear the word of God and do it? Why did his brother James, who is commonly considered the author of the Book of James, begin by saying “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ” and not take the wonderful opportunity to call Jesus his brother? And another question: If Jesus actually had the DNA of Mary, He would have blood relatives on the earth today! That does not seem reasonable for different reasons.
    And of course we may understand conception better today than they did hundreds of years ago, but could God not have performed the miracle of creating Jesus as human flesh though not of Mary herself just as He did with the conception by the Holy Ghost? And just as He did in creating Adam from dust? For if He created our Saviour using Mary’s flesh, does that not make Mary the Mother of God? How shall we go about reverencing the Mother of God? Does this not lessen the divinity of Christ? Does this not take away from the Kingship of Christ? And, most importantly, does this not do what mankind has tried for a millenia to do, namely pull Christ down and elevate ourselves? I may be wrong, but I do not believe that the Bible ever say that Jesus took on the flesh of Mary.
    I do not dispute that Christ came as flesh, but I believe that there are weighty reasons why many Christian forebears held to and taught the Incarnation of Christ as the COGCM currently does. Just because this church believes it this way does not make this belief system incorrect.

  2. I know that our guest blogger will come on with the answers to your questions, but I have one concern after reading your comment. You are simply presenting various arguments in this very important discussion. The guest blogger has presented a multitude of scriptures. We cannot rely upon our natural minds to answer these questions, we must go to the Bible.

    Your first question is would Jesus not have been under the same sentence of death? An obvious answer would be that he in fact DID DIE. However, he overcame death for us. He died, and he was the first fruits of the resurrection. Hallelujah!

    Jesus had to be our brother in order to redeem us. There is the law of redemption in the Old Testament, which states the law of the kinsman redeemer.

    Leviticus 25:45 “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
    v. 46 “And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
    v. 46 “And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother [that dwelleth] by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger [or] sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger’s family:”
    v. 48 “After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:

    This passage of scripture tells us that when we are bondsmen,we may be redeemed by a near relative. He must be a brother, a blood brother. Jesus had to be our brother in order to redeem us. You can purchase anything if you have the money, but you cannot REDEEM it unless you once owned it. Jesus was there in the beginning at the creation of the world, as part of the Godhead, and the world was owned by him, the earth and all creation, including man. Therefore, he owned it. Jesus did not only buy back mankind, but all creation. One day it will be restored to it’s glorious perfection and his redeemed will inherit it. Therefore, in order to pay the price to redeem us, Jesus had to take on the form of a man, he had to be subject to all that we are, he had to partake of human nature. Otherwise he would not have been able to pay the redemption price for us. We were not redeemed by supernatural pseudo blood, but in fact by the blood of a brother. This is the price that it cost to redeem us. One could also ask, following your line of reasoning, If he was not our brother, then how could he have felt pain? If he was some sort of celestial body, not a man, then he could not have been killed. The attributes of God are omnipotence (all powerful) omnipresence (all present) and omniscience (all knowing.) Another one of God’s attributes is that he cannot die. When Jesus walked on the earth, he was none of these things. He was not all knowing. He said there were things that the father knew that he did not know, such as the day and the hour of his return. he was not all powerful. He said Without my father I can do nothing. He was not omnipresent. He could only be in one place at a time. So in these ways he was limited to the attributes of a man, not God. God cannot die, and yet Jesus died, so therefore, he had to be a man. Once again, using your reasoning, one could say, it doesn’t seem reasonable that God would feel physical pain and be tortured. But this is just what Jesus did. I will leave the rest of the reply to the guest blogger, these are just some things to think about. Thank you for your interest in this extremely important and interesting subject.

    Hiram

    • sowhatistruth says:

      They may be ‘various arguments’, Hiram, but they are able to be backed by scripture and thus clearly more than a ‘natural mind’ response. Of course Christ could feel pain! He came as human flesh! Your comment (God cannot die, and yet Jesus died, so therefore, he had to be a man) has raised another question: If Jesus was NOT GOD as you just claimed, but clearly man, why then did he not sin? All men have sinned and come short… no? I feel that as the Son of God and Divine, Jesus Christ was tempted (without sin) and when He died, He took on the sins of the entire human race. You must realize that Christ was God! He came to earth (through the lineage or seed of Abraham, that is Joseph), was born of the virgin Mary, and took on human flesh (miraculously). Jesus our Redeemer. The Real Deal through the Law of Redemption!

      I hope all the other premises that I laid out will be considered.

  3. Furthermore, regarding the issue of the kinsman redeemer, a friend may have the money to redeem a debtor, but he does not have a redemption right. The slave-owner has no obligation to sell his slave to a non-kinsman—at any price.. The right of the slave-master to refuse the sale supersedes the right of a friend to purchase him. But if a kinsman comes with a sufficient amount of money to pay the remaining portion of the debt note, the slave-master has no choice in the matter! The kinsman’s redemption right takes precedence over the slave-master’s desire to keep the slave in his possession.

    This is an extremely important law when we apply it to Jesus, the Redeemer of Creation. This is why Jesus had to come as a man of flesh and blood. Hebrews 2:11 says, “He is not ashamed to call them brethren.” Verses 14 and 15 say, Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.” He redeemed the bondsmen, he set the slaves free! And he did this through the laws of redemption set forth in the Old Testament. God wasn’t just having fun making up rules about things for the Israelites, he was setting the pattern. He was creating the law of redemption by which His Son would have the right to become our brother, come to earth and purchase us back from the cruel slave owner, Satan himself! I like that thought much better than the thought that God somehow sort of lowered himself just a hair, tolerated being trapped in a human body for a time appearing to be human, somehow being God being forced to appear to die, and then perform some sort of superfluous resurrection just to impress us. No my friend, this was the real deal, the Law of Redemption come to pass for us!

  4. ~Set Free says:

    Of interesting note is that Jesus did in fact have the DNA of Mary. Mr. Andrew Wyatt in searching for the truth and facts of the scriptures has been in a tunnel / cave under the hill Golgotha. According to “video footage” while there he found in a crack in the roof of rock, dried blood, another interesting point to consider is that he also found the mercy seat under there and the blood dripped onto it. Mr. Wyatt died before he could finish his exploration and all the documentation he wanted to get. Nevertheless he did take some of the dried blood scraped off the surfaces there. When He brought it back to the US he had it checked in the most modern DNA lab in the country. There were only the female chromisomes. God is a Spirit those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth…God has no DNA…but Mary did. In this unprecedented finding it is interesting to note that “ALL” humans have both male and female chromisomes in their DNA. To be “Fully God” as well as “fully man” Jesus has to have the attributes of both His Father “God” as well as His mother, Mary. God in the several instances He spoke from heaven said, “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.” Even the people that came to the crowded room told Jesus, “Thy mother and thy brethren, (in my own words) are outside wanting to talk to you.” The people of the day “knew” who Jesus’ mother was but they did not know His real Father. Jesus was rejected by many because He was considered a bastard child…a child born out of wedlock. Consider the sorrow and grief of rejection when you read, “(Isaiah 53:3 KJV) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.” Today many men are rejecting God because they refuse to believe. Those who reject God and deny Christ will one day be rejected by Him and He will say to them, “Depart from me,for I never knew you.” If you don’t know Christ as a brother neither will He know you as a brother.
    May God open your eyes so you may be…~Set Free

  5. ~Set Free says:

    The Wyatt museum is located just off I-65 south of Nashville TN. I’ve been there and I’ve seen.
    The place is a humble and very unimpressive place. You have to search hard to find the truth and it isn’t in fancy palaces or places of great reknown.
    Christ did not come to impress you.
    He came so that you might be..~Set Free

    • sowhatistruth says:

      I have researched Ron Wyatt and have come away sketpical. I, along with many others more learned than I, cannot endorse him as confidently as you have. Even if Christ’s blood has 23 chromosomes, God could easily have built that string without using Mary’s DNA. I cannot reconcile the fact that Mary was the Mother of God. If she was, how was Christ sinless? Please enlighten me on how I am to reverence Her? If Christ had the DNA of Mary, one of us conversing here may very well be Christ’s blood half-relation. Again, as mentioned earlier, this does not seem reasonable. Unless, of course, Christ was not God but man. Wholly man. I prefer Holy Man. The Very Son of God. Made flesh. Simple. Awesome. Redeeming. Perfect.

  6. JT says:

    This is an interesting discussion, and the implications of misunderstanding this affect our ability to understand Christ. We can be assured that our understanding does not lower or raise Christ. He was, is, and will be no matter what I decide to believe. What we MUST do is find for our soul a relationship with Him. And to acheive that we will need to be available to invite Him in for companionship. He will show us Himself. Ephesians 1, 15-21 suggests that the same power that raised Jesus is available to us. Wow!

  7. JT says:

    If I may, I would like to elaborate on my comment. The idea that we can raise or lower Christ is worth investigating. A comment earlier on this post suggests this is a danger to beware of as we study the doctrine of Incarnation. This can be a fear based in the fallacy that God will appreciate it if we defend Him. In this line of thought we subconsciously expect favor for our efforts. This is similar to supporting the most popular person we know so WE can raise OUR status. Or maybe we don’t want to be destroyed and therefore need to curry favor. Either way, we are serving ourselves. Now when we are ready to find out what God is really like, we will accept Him as King over our understanding. In this position we are interested in finding out what He IS rather then if He is what I THINK He is. Remember that even Eligah, Moses, Abraham, and similar heroes worked at identifying God. And God was faithful in revealing Himself. God Is. My ideas won’t change that. I appreciate that the author of this series is using the Word to identify Christ. When we find Truth we won’t need to argue pieces of the Word away. As we open ourselves to acknowledging that we need a King, start the search for one. When we find out that God is an option, we will be in a battle with our will. When we lay our will aside then God can rule. When He rules, He will reveal more of Himself. The revelation will show us more possibility for righteousness, and we will experience a deeper need of a King. If we have questions regarding Incarnation and are of those that know that God is real and Jesus did come and the Word is true, then why not put aside our ideas and pray God to reveal Himself in this matter. A good start would be the Holy Bible.

  8. Not So Certain says:

    The key in all this is to search the scripture. Never should we go to other writings, books, forefathers, etc. to prove the Bible. Always we should go to the Bible to prove the former. Several points to be made on the incarnation topic, and which are clearly exposed in the article, are the verses which very clearly state that Jesus was OF MARY, the fruit of her womb, etc. while Bible Doctrine and Practice very clearly states the opposite. Which statement will you rather believe? The Bible very clearly states that Mary was Jesus mother. Whether or not he called her mother does not change the fact that the Bible says she was His mother. The Bible very clearly states that Jesus was of the “seed of Abraham according to the flesh.” Acts 2:30 states of David that God swore with an oath that of the fruit of David’s loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ. If Jesus was a blood relative of people before his birth, why not a blood relative of people after His birth. I don’t see a problem with this. Why would you have to reverence Mary more if she was His mother? Many, many people have been used by God for various purposes throughout history and they remain normal human beings. Mary was chosen by God and that is enough for me.

    We cannot elevate or pull Christ down at all. He brought Himself down! He calls us His brethren! He moved Himself into our position. We do not have one ounce of strength to move Him. He moves Himself and desires we will move ourselves to Him! He came in such a way that the poorest and most despised of the human race will be able to identify with Him. He also made sure that the worst sinner will find someone who completely understands! Is it not human pride and self righteousness that wishes to elevate Christ? Do we want to be lifted up once we have accepted Him? Are we willing to also be counted among the most lowly? Christ wants to fill us with His glory and is looking for vessels that are made of the basest of material possible, earth. Can you not see that He chose to be made “of human flesh” so we could become one in relationship with him? This is a tremendous truth! This is the most important happening in all the earth! Words fail to explain it!

    • sowhatistruth says:

      I agree that He chose to be made human flesh and that Christ is OF MARY! But how can you clearly show that He took on the “flesh of Mary” according to scripture? Christ was of the seed of Abraham…as I believe that both Joseph and Mary both were of the lineage of Abraham through David.

      We cannot elevate or lower Christ, but our view of Him will affect our relationship with Him. I am sure you agree. As we view Him as completely human, we make ourselves like God… just like the Devil convinced the first humans. The Truth is that God Is. Nothing can change that comforting thought.

  9. ~Set Free says:

    I believe part of the answer lies in the fact that Mary was “the mother of Jesus, the son of man” and and not as is so erroniously taught, “the Mother of God” and nowhere that I have read are we to “reverence her”. This is a Roman Catholic teaching in my understanding and I don’t claim to know or understand all of the teaching of “any” “religion”. I don’t think it is necessarilly important to understand the teachings of “religion”. But it very important to understand the teachings of God and His Son Jesus Christ. In our world today a child takes the name of his father. Jesus is the Son of God. Yet that doesn’t negate the fact that a child is equally the son of his mother and just as much a part of her as he is a part of his father. In the world today when a woman marries she takes on the name of her husband but a man takes the name of his father, because it is set in order by God. In that respect, as well as I believe literally, Jesus is the Son of God (here and in the bible upper case) and equally, the son of man (here and in the bible lower case). As the Son of God He has been lifted up and set over all. As the son of man, He has submitted to the Father. The question perhaps is not; was Mary “the Mother of God” but was Mary the mother of the son of man and I believe that is where we fail to see and realize the truth.

    • sowhatistruth says:

      Regarding your statement of Christ being literally the Son of God and equally the son of man… If Mary was the actual mother of the son of man, then she was also the mother of the Son of God. This is logical and cannot be argued. This makes her the mother of God. The mother of God must have been extraordinary… supernatural… as God IS SUPERNATURAL. I cannot reconcile this. I understand that she was needed to bear Christ, but He did not have her DNA. Nowhere does the Bible concede that He was the flesh of Mary. Please tell me, do you actually claim that Jesus Christ relinquished his Divinity and became only man? I hope I am misunderstanding you.

      • ~Set Free says:

        Perhaps there is a difference that I see between the “Mother” of God and the “mother” of God. Also consider that there is; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. These three are one and yet they are distinct and seperate. To admit that Jesus Christ is at the same time the son of man as well as the Son of God does not stretch my mind as much as it seems to stretch some. Some of these things to me I just accept in faith without the need to perfectly understand them. When you eat an egg do you perfectly understand how it is formed in a chicken and has a yolk, the white, and a hard shell ? And yet it is all made in the same chicken ? Also that that same egg may be infertile if there is no rooster ? Perhaps you’ve never considered the miracles of / in nature around you ? Things that don’t make sense, things that you don’t understand and yet things that you accept and take for granted every day ? Do you have to see and perfectly understand electricity in order to have it in your home and enjoy and use it’s power ?
        Is it taking this scripture out of context to suggest that there are things we won’t necessarily understand about God but that we must accept if we want to accept Him ? (Hebrews 11:1 KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
        Do you have to stick your finger in the nail holes to believe ? If you do I pray Jesus may come to you in person and “prove” to you that He is both the son of man as well as the Son of God. He did for Thomas and as God is the same yesterday, today and forever I believe if you ask “Him” He is just that good and gracious that He will do it. But you still must ask in faith nothing wavering and not to consime it upon your lusts.

  10. Hiram says:

    Excellent point!

    • brotherhiram says:

      I do want to make one point here. I see that we are referring to “God the Father” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Ghost.” The bible never refers to “God the Son” or “God the Holy Ghost.” Let’s make sure we don’t assume some things that are not so. I think there are some errors in the teaching of the trinity…one being that the Holy Ghost is separate from God. The Spirit of God is not a separate being from God, anymore than our spirits are separate from us. By this I do not diminish the truth of the godhead, I just think we should remain scriptural in the things we say. I have a spirit but it is not a separate person from me. However, this might be a discussion for another time.

      • ~Set Free says:

        Interesting ? I never noticed that before ??

        • ~Set Free says:

          my next question is; Where do we get that thinking from ? about God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I guess in my “thinking” it comes from the three being one.
          This is a totally new thought to me that I have just taken for granted before??
          I’d like to see some “scriptures” either pro or con ?

  11. JT says:

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Romans chapter 1

    I would like to hear Whatistruth’s thoughts on these verses.

  12. Not So Certain says:

    Sowhatistruth, what are your thoughts on the verses that tell us that Jesus was MADE OF the seed of Abraham and David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. One scripture says MADE OF THE FRUIT OF DAVID’S LOINS ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Mary was told she would CONCEIVE IN HER WOMB, and that Jesus was THE FRUIT OF HER WOMB. What would be the point of scripture making this clear if it were not so?

    For me the key is that the physical part of Jesus was flesh like we are, fully human. The spiritual part of Him was that part which was fully God. Now we as believers can also be partakers of the divine nature in our earthen bodies. The whole New Testament never gets far from this profound truth. We are not saying He was completely human as you suggest. Far from it. We are saying that only the physical part of him was human, given to him through humanity. The spiritual part of Him was given to Him by His Father. I am afraid your view could lead to a blurring of the distinction between God the Father and God the Son. They are two distinct beings, yet fully in unity.

    Have you studied where the current view in the COGCM comes from? Start reading on page 40 of Bible Doctrine and Practice. There you will find quotations from Menno Simons, whose view was undeniably faulty. You will read, “the word was made flesh, not of Mary, but in Mary.” This is NOT what the Bible says. The Bible says OF in numerous places and never IN. You will read further that “The distinction of Christ’s body being formed in Mary, rather than being of her, points out the truth that while man is subject to inherent sin, Christ was not. Since Jesus was one of the Godhead, He could not sin.” This is an even greater error and shows the progression of the faulty reasoning. The Bible does not say Christ could not have sinned. It says He was tempted in ALL POINTS like we are. Just think about temptation for a bit. If you are tempted to do something, you have to have the possibility of doing it. If there is no possibility of DOING it is not a temptation. Think about it; Jesus overcame sin IN THE FLESH so that we also might overcome sin in our flesh. Friends, this is huge! Read Romans chapter 8. Jesus triumphed over sin. He conquered sin. This means he fought sin. This was not some obscure, mystic battle somewhere. It was fought right on the same ground we walk on, in the same flesh we possess, with the same temptations we face! The Bible tells us so! Go ahead and think about every temptation you have ever faced, and understand that Jesus also faced it in some form. His physical body had ALL the same cravings! OH MY! But he OVERCAME! Hallelujah!

  13. Throughtheglassdarkly says:

    Jesus is our brother. How else could we become the children of God!?. How do we become a child of God? What was the purpose of Jesus coming to earth? He came to Earth to do 2 things. 1. Show us that WE can live above sin (and in so doing become a perfect sacrifice to fulfill the law of Moses) 2. To triumph over death. God is Spirit. How does God come down to Earth? In Spirit. How does God reside on earth? As Spirit in flesh. Sinful, Adam flesh. Friends, if the body of Christ was not related to us (sinful creatures) he could not have achieved his purposes. His sinless life would not have empowered us to overcome temptation by the Power of the Spirit of God in us! His death and resurrection would have had no impact on our eternal prospects.
    Christ’s ability to subject his sin prone body and to overcome sin and death came through the Spirit of God in him. It would appear that he was born as a baby with the Spirit of God in Him! He allowed the Spirit full control of his life and body. (If only I could do this more effectively on a daily basis!)
    What is Christ’s Church? It is his body on earth!!! If Christ’s body had no part of us, how can we have a part in Christ’s body?? Christ (the Spirit) wants to “tabernacle” with us. To in-dwell us. Through this in-dwelling, we have access to eternal Life. The same Life that Adam had BEFORE HE SINNED!

    If we deny Christ’s flesh, but still want to be part of His Church, this forces us to create man made, “one true church’s”. fake bodies of Christ. An antichrist. See 1st John 4:3. These church’s have to try with human might to resemble Christ. The minsters have fight “the drift” and battle to make sure that “the gates of hell do not prevail against it”!! Do you think that Christ’s Church, built on a rock, his physical body on Earth, HAS TO BATTLE A DRIFT?!!!!!! Did Jesus tell his disciples to “make sure that the gates of hell don’t prevail against my Church?”

  14. brotherhiram says:

    sowhatistruth, I see that you are caught up with the questions that plague us when we are trapped by religion. The more relevant question should not be was Mary the mother of God, but what did it take to redeem us. I have been told, (and it is a thought I had not had before) that Jesus did not do the miracles he did because he was God, but because of his faith, his relationship with the Father. The guest blogger has pointed out to us that if we believe that Christ was not our brother, but was in fact celestial flesh, then we believe he did things we cannot do, because he was God. In fact, he did tell the disciples that they would do greater works than he had done? (John 4:12 “He that believeth on me, the works that I do, shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do..”)How was this possible if he did the things he did because he was God? He did them because he was full of God’s Spirit, and he was an example for us. He told us we could also be full of God’s Spirit. How often do we live our daily lives and give God a small part maybe in the morning or the evening, or on Sunday? Jesus gave himself to prayer and time with his Father. What might happen if we spent more time with God? What if there is much much more available to us and we are not making use of it? Do we tell ourselves that we are limited and powerless because we are not able to have access to the Spirit of God the way that Jesus did, that in fact he had something more than we can have? According to the scripture, this is not so. He says we can do GREATER works than he did. We do know that the disciples did great things, was this because they were God that they were able to heal, raise the dead, etc? NO, it was because they were FULL of the Spirit of God. Was this limited to the disciples? I don’t know that the Bible says so. Do we sell ourselves short because we have a celestial view of Jesus? If believe he was a human being who was filled with the Spirit of God, we will strive to be more like him.

    You also ask if Jesus relinquished his divinity and became only man…What do you do with these verses…2 Corinthians 8:9 “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”: and also Philipians 2:7 where it says that he made himself of no reputation. This scripture has caused a great deal of consternation as it should have actually been translated “emptied himself.” It is translated from the Greek word kenosis, which means to empty. Because people have refused to believe that he emptied himself of his glory and his divinity to become a man, our blood brother, they solved the dilemma by changing it to “made himself of no reputation.” Yet the orginal text says that he emptied himself. What did he empty himself of? The verse before this says that , being in the form of God, he thought in not robbery to be equal with God…..BUT he EMPTIED HIMSELF. He left heaven. He was rich but he became poor. He was divine but he became a man. I myself have had a hard time to accept that he was not a supernatural being while on this earth, but was in fact a man, tempted, hungry, tired, overwhelmed, in need of time in prayer with the father, murdered…..God does not suffer these things, a man does. Jesus was not feigning being a man, he WAS a man. It ws only through the power of the Holy Spirit in his life that he overcame the temptation to sin. Not because he was God and could not sin. He did this for us so that we could see that the same overcoming power is available to us.

  15. JT says:

    I am hoping that someone that has studied this subject and arrived at the same conclusions that are taught in Bible Doctrine and Practice will put pen to their conclusions and post them here. I have tried for a lot of years to understand the base of this one. I can follow the logic of Sowhatistruth, but there are scriptural verses that need to be explained away from literal meaning to build that base. Unless I am wrong? Here’s hoping someone is willing to write.

  16. I agree with you about being able to understand the questions asked by sowhatistruth. These are the complaints alway put forth by the church when someone asks if Christ could have had flesh from Mary. Instead of going to the scriptures which plainly show us that he did, we are given these questions. If he did, then what how, etc? This is a classic example of making the scriptures bow to our preconceived ideas. No matter what the bible says, we will disregard it if it clashes with our established belief. We need to learn that no matter how dearly held a belief is if it does not agree with what is in the bible it will have to go. Our beliefs will have to agree with the bible, not the other way around. The Holdemans are masters of this device.

  17. ~Set Free says:

    Seems to me some of these people have never considered the implications of; Acts 17:11 KJV These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    I have a problem with these preachers getting up and telling everyone they need a bible doctine and practice handbook when what the people really need to be studying is “the Bible”. Seems like these people think those of today with the Holy Spirit are too ignorant to understand the scriptures with out their study book. The way I see it “while study books “can” be helpful” Where did the people that wrote them get their information or misinformation ? To take a book written with the specific purpose of promoting your thinking instead of truth and that in the recent past, over and above the scriptures is the height of folly and ignorance ? Does that mean everything in there that is written is wrong ? I don’t think it does, but to swallow it hook line and sinker without searching the scriptures to prove it is against the teachings of God, who says Try me and see. God isn’t afraid of someone questioning Him because He is Truth. Those who are not truth fear that it will become apparent if they’re questioned by all appearences ?

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